And all I have to do is fix the broken search function that was working last week? The past project can tell how many resources had been used in order to achieve the goal. If you're ever not sure of whether/how many to hire, err on the side of none/one. However, web application managers and developers face problems when they need to estimate development time, effort and cost of the projects on the basis of customer's requirements. There is practically no such thing as a reliable estimate based on coarse requirements. I want to repeat for the record that this is of no practical use in a real project plan and I would never actually commit to a project timeline without breaking down the entire spec into tasks of a maximum size of 1-2 days. Even a week-long estimate usually turns out badly. I highly suggest taking this information and putting it something like (fogbugz)[www.fogbugz.com]. If that goes well, you'll have a lot more real information on which to estimate future features with a larger team. Having said this, there is a particular heuristic I often use for back-of-the-envelope estimates, and let me be crystal clear that these are never actually committed to or used in project plans - they're simply ways to help answer the question that customers and managers always ask, "so let's say we want to do
, how long do you think that would take?". if we have more amount of information then it is the very easy and correct way to estimate the correct effort. Rather than trying to predict the unpredictable, why not start with as small a team as possible (less communication overhead), and deliver the minimum feature set that gets you into the market place (earlier validation of business/market need). Volatility - how clear is the scope/ownership, how likely is it to change? The template also pr Summary Sheet The information on the summary sheet is automatically calculated from the other detailed sheets. Then, hire two to work as a pair on this list for two weeks, they will be able to tell you the 'width' of the work list. If designer does not get the suitable amount of information related to the project then it becomes very tough to estimate the price. I'm looking to be able to derive an approximate number of person-hours for a project to know how many people to hire in a startup. Authorization [Client.Company] is engaging [Sender.Company], as an independent contractor for the [Client.Company] website development, deployment, hosting, & support. A web application built on the .NET platform (C#, ASP MVC, etc...), A defined number of use cases with a mix of easy and complex ones (in this project, 70 use cases; but assume a project with a high enough number of use cases to give a good bell curve of complex and not complex), A defined database schema (again, in this case there are 50 or so tables, but assume a web application that does more than the typical book example with seven tables :) ), A partner who wants a quick-and-dirty, best-current-guess estimate, and understands it's not a contract to hold, is experienced with software development, and that the software (and understanding thereof) will version and evolve, Deployment time (include several; dev, stage, production etc). The most complete project management glossary for professional project managers. When you add a new wrinkle, such as that the app is customer-facing, that doesn't just add a little extra time to the project, it doubles or triples the time because now everything will take longer as a result of having to be vetted for language, legal, look and feel, etc. Give each feature a t-shirt size: extra-small, small, medium, large, xl, xxl. The use cases are the simple diagrams which helps the person in knowing about the flow of work from source to destination. These requirements can let you know about the number of resources which you may be required to complete the process, total time which the project will take for completion and the amount of money which will be needed throughout the creation of the project. And, don't start any of this unless you have a direct path to the people how can explain exactly what you have to produce. If your team hasn't already done something comparable; pick a feature and implement it together. Use this template to estimate the budget for an allocated or desired web development project. Estimate Your Web Development Efforts Hellboy Medium Create A Project Budget That Works The Complete Cost Estimation Web Development Short Form Contract Canada Web Development Effort Estimation Template For Web Development Size How Website Proposal Template Powerpoint Presentations Can What Is Agile What Is Scrum Agile Faq S Cprime Free Work Breakdown Structure Templates … “When will you or your team be able to complete this project or software or feature?” How often you listen above phrase from your bosses or project leads or managers? If it is too high, it is quite possible that the client will leave the project or if it too low then your performance will be doubted. NEVER quote your calculation as a point in time - always quote it as a range, with a larger range indicating less certainty. I usually try to split up estimates that are larger than one work day (5-7 hours). Practically, it can be very tough for you to have an exact estimation of the all the resources used up in the project. I think you already know this, so with that in mind I'll try to detail what I do when estimate a project: At this point you'll have the super unrealistic magic best case estimate in man hours/days. So, with the help of available resources and number of resources which are needed, you can estimate the price of the project. The estimation is important because it gives the project team some confidence about the required effort and time to plan ahead for the project. When you’re estimating any kind of software project, you will be omitting various factors that can affect someone’s overall estimate. Software estimates are nothing more than guesses, however with proper tracking you can refine that guess as you get closer to your goal. I just follow the task break down approach where I have break the required functionalities in separate tasks. Project management guide on CheckyKey.com. If you have tasks like "Do something, 30 hours" you should be cautious. It is at best useful for coming up with a minimum baseline project "size", something you can say in a board meeting to set some semblance of an expectation without signing on the dotted line. It's easier to get timing right on smaller pieces. Effort Estimation for Software Development. Given below are the 3 main levels of Agile Estimation.#1) Project or Proposal level is the one which uses Quick Function Point Analysis during the initial phases of the Project development.#2) Release Level includes assigning the story points to the user stories that can help in defining the order of the user stories based on the priority and can also help in deciding which stories can be taken in current release and which can be taken later.#3) … Not to estimate sounds tempting, but let’s just imagine for a moment, that you are calling a cab. The estimate of time should be precise. Chances are, your client will change his mind along the way anyways, so you might as well build the regular feedback/discussion in the process. In my experience, most tasks estimated at 1 week without further details end up taking 2-3 weeks, and the problem only gets worse with larger projects. understands it's not a contract to As Sam says its very easy to get these ballpark estimates wrong depending on the size and complexity of the project you are trying to estimate. Take a M sized feature, and identify something that the team has already delivered in the desired technology - use this as your expected calibrating measure. developers). We know that as programmers/designers/architects, we are optimists. That's easy! Estimating Software Projects By. Then add in some extra time for all the tasks you forgot. I've been on projects where they just throw several devs in at once and each does their own thing and the project turns into a hodge-podge of conflicting ideas. Using S = 1/2M, L=2M, XL=4M, calculate expected project length. With the help of use cases, the person can know about the number of resources which have been allocated at a time to different parts of the project and also about that part of the project which requires more time and money for completion. (note how MS only predict which year something will be released!). 2. Go through each feature giving each one a time estimate. Project Effort Estimation Template Excel project via (lbartman.com) SAP Overview for Managers via (slideshare.net) Free Sample,Example & Format Effort Estimation Template Excel eXnid Viele übersetzte Beispielsätze mit "effort estimation" – Deutsch-Englisch Wörterbuch und Suchmaschine für Millionen von Deutsch-Übersetzungen. So I think you should ask yourself; which problem would I rather have, being late or having too many people on the project. Before you go for any kind of estimates, the first thing which you should do is to organize the requirements. I would suggest breaking down the proposed app into as much detail and tasks as possible and estimating the individual tasks and adding that up. A standard report example of project estimation that can be used as a template for calculating your software, app or website testing duration. So maybe you need to start by hiring a project owner to do this level of analysis. Project Management Effort Estimation Template – A quote sent a week appears lazy, and provides the customer reason to shop about for a better deal. The most important of all the estimates is the estimation of time. Together with this, the estimate displays the total amount of danger for each item in the list. There are lots of factors involved in deriving the effort estimation … I always tried to find the answers in the books but estimation is difficult subject to understand. Effort Estimation Of Web Based Applications 3 1.2 Difficulties in Software Effort Estimation Software effort estimating has been growing in importance up to today. Numerous studies have shown that the amount of effort you put into any project increases with the size, type, and … The most complete project management glossary for professional project managers. Last modified April 27, 2020, 20+ Free Bank Reconciliation Sheet Templates, 32+ Free Cohabitation Agreement Templates, 23+ Free Rental Application Forms & Templates. This document describes the techniques of used to produce reliable estimates for the work required to complete projects and tasks. Web Development Project Budget Excel Template. At this point, if you can, negotiate with the customer to reduce the number of XL features to the bare minimum. Once again, just to be absolutely sure everybody heard me: Do not use this method to create an actual project estimate. We will Know about the “RPA effort estimation template” in this tutorial. Effort estimation template for software development. Impact - will it support/replace a critical business function? Effort estimation is the main key to any successful business. ), which allows the analyst to reuse estimations for certain tasks from past projects. Moreover, great interweb has a movement, denying the estimation and acclaiming only writing a code — and let chance decide. Expected lifetime - run-once, temporary, or permanent? You can’t rely solely on past experiences of working on smaller projects for making estimates on large-scale projects. Practically, it is almost impossible for the person to design the website in the desired amount of time. It's very easy for rough guestimates to be very wrong. A spreadsheet template for Three Point Estimation is available together with a Worked Example illustrating how the template is used in practice. “Estimation is the process of finding an estimate, or approximation, which is a value that is usable for some purpose even if input data may be incomplete, uncertain, or unstable.” [Reference: Wikipedia]We all come across different tasks and duties and deadlines throughout our lives as professionals, now there are two approaches to find a solution to a problem.A first approach is a reactive approach whereby we try to find a so… Title: Project and task estimation template Subject: Project and task estimation template Author: Anders Ekström Last modified by: Johan Magne Created Date You can divide this by the number of available developer resources you have at your disposal to get the number of days to ship. This tool enables software development effort estimation using 5 different methods. Hire enough pairs to fill the width and hire an architect to work with the original project owner to continue to expand the list. Couple of months back I got a SharePoint application for estimation. Is LOC correct parameter for project estimation? WEB SITE ESTIMATE WORKSHEET Preparation and Management Server-Side Application Building Site specification development (needs analysis/content planning/site structure design) Specification development for dynamic applications Designing and building databases Meetings, phone calls, email correspondence with client Designing and coding dynamic applications Supervision of subcontractors … In the field of Web Engineering, effort estimation represents one of the crucial problems as there is no “ silver bullet ” method for effort estimation. Does it need to interoperate with any other systems. To inform and improve our software development process. The estimate of time should be precise. You are not ready to hire anyone until you have a batch of (pick your vocabulary, user stories, function points, ...). Software Estimation Process. There are two main ways to estimate project/effort costs – “top down estimating” and “bottom-up estimating”. Project type and size The size and type of project will influence the estimation process. Development effort estimation template. (If so it will need to go through a zillion revisions). Effort estimation template for web development. Doing it this helps with quality and consistency. You also mention that you don't even know the level of expertise of the people who you are estimating for, and that doesn't make it any easier. In fact, in my experience, any single task estimated at more than 1 day is a strong indication that the task needs to be broken down further into subtasks. The estimation includes: Critical functional testing checklist; Other testing activities checklist (incl. Do people have any rules of thumb they use to quickly guesstimate the number of hours involved? Definition of Effort Estimation: The process by which the amount of effort (in person hours) needed to develop a software application is predicted, in order to be used as basis to predict project costs and to allocate resources (e.g. The most complete project management glossary for professional project managers. Break the project up into features, where each feature is specific, measurable, achievable and realistic. Looking at the past project also help the web designer in evaluating the estimates. Let's put it aside and work on some fun Ajax fade effects. ), prioritize the use cases, time the first delivery so that you can make it, and have a loose estimation / plan on the subsequent iterations - and re-discuss priorities at every iteration. Can anyone have any check list or template that I can refer while I do the effort estimation for SharePoint applications? In software development, effort estimation is the process of predicting the most realistic amount of effort required to develop or maintain software based on incomplete, uncertain and noisy input. Firstly let me preface this by saying that no matter what you do your estimate will be wrong. When the computer era began back in the 1940's, there were few computers in use and applications were mostly small, one person projects. If you've estimated the common tasks decently you can anticipate timing wise when to stagger the next dev in. What comes around, goes around (you can look this movement for with the tag #noestimates). So, it is important for the develop to arrange the meetings with the client in order to let them know that the website development may not be completely according to the expectations. so for 3 skilled and organized developers it should take about 3 months :) but it's only estimate. If you can't measure it you can't manage it. Decide upfront on a delivery schedule (every 3 weeks? Software Development Process Template. Think feature (login), not layer/task (table to hold credentials). Another technique for evaluation is the use of use cases. As a startup. I highly suggest taking this information and putting it something like (fogbugz)[www.fogbugz.com]. T-Shirt sizes work well - S, M, L, XL. With IT project evaluation and cost estimation, you will be able to clearly identify all of the goals and objectives of the new or replaced solution. Be aware the UCP only provides developer effort and you need to add project manager, tester, config mgt, etc effort for a whole project effort estimate. This statistics allows to conclude, that the estimation of projects often doesn’t correspond to reality. A wise web developer thinks wisely and then chooses any one of them. 4 more weeks? This estimating template provides a common format for making estimates for typical IT development projects. (Consider the following areas in estimating your software development. You can then mark your actual time against your estimated time to get a better idea of when your ship date will realistically be. If all estimators use a common format, it will be much easier for the entire organization to create and interpret the results. The estimate suggests the phases of product construction and the time necessary for their execution. Hire one smart person who gets things done to get started, and then after a while, ask them how many more people are needed to finish by a given date. development, and that the software I also have found it best to stagger devs in to a new big project. All that being said, have you considered that you could be asking the wrong question? Fees for monthly services will be invoices on the 1st business day of each calendar month, and are due on a net-30 basis. IMHO it would take approx 500 +/- 100 hours to code the app and another 300 to code the tests and again 500 to run the tests and app in the wild. As others already mentioned break out the task items and estimate each of them. The estimate can be too high or too low. All Rights Reserved. Of course you could be extremely conservative but then you just risk over-hiring instead of running late. Effort estimates may be used as input to project plans, iteration plans, budgets, investment analyses, pricing processes and bidding rounds. The 31 minute MPEG2 video presentation provides estimating best practices, tips and real world experience to maximize the benefits associated with this document. There are no rules that I would pass on. Defining the context and scope for the project is the first step to understanding if the application in your mind has a valid business potential and worth investing in the first place. We have created a simple and easy Project Budget template with predefined formulas and formats. There are many other factors which can be there in the process of website development such as market analysis, structure development, creating the content, image search, SEO optimization, adding features such as Google Analytics, server management and maintenance once online. hold, is experienced with software Answers of "4 to 6 weeks" are fun, glib answers, but I'd like to hear from people who've actually established some simple barometers of work. Payment. then can you break the project in smaller projects, in an agile manner? Effort estimation for web applications ... closer look Template points – Customization of content management products essentially involve customizing pre-built templates – Complexity of each template is determined by difficulty involved in customizing it – Templates classified into simple, medium and complex based on number of hooks and complexity of processing involved in each hook … Start with a couple devs (your best ones) to get the the common framework tasks to a point where others can start working in parallel on features and be productive. I suggest multiplying it by at least two. Originality of project - have we done anything like it before? Practically, it is almost impossible for the person to design the website in the desired amount of time. Later I estimated each individual task. When we give ourselves a long, nebulous target to hit, it's incredibly easy to feel like we are ahead of the game even though we really aren't. Organizing the requirements helps a person a lot in evaluating the estimates. Printable Samples © 2021. Create sub tasks breaking down each feature into sub-tasks. Most good estimates come from some sort of iterative process where you make an estimate, look why the estimate was wrong, and then compensate next time you estimate. I do here them a lot and it’s always an annoying experience for me to give an estimate just by judgment or without any preparation. best-current-guess estimate, and Fees to [Sender.Company] are due in accordance with the above listed pricing table. There may be a trade-off between the price and the time taken to complete the project. Most web sites/applications use similar components (login and signup forms, user management, mailing, storage and image processing services, etc. Is it customer-facing? c# - techniques - effort estimation template for web development . What is Effort Estimation? UPDATE: I am asking for ballpark estimations rules based on measurable but coarse requirements. Agile estimation techniques suggest the following techniques: Assign a relative size measure to each of your identified "features". We all know that software estimation is difficult to get exact, but I am not looking for exact. And this translated to money at the end. So, it is important for the develop to arrange the meetings with the client in order to let them know that the website development may not be completely according to the expectations. Use the following link for further information: Generated by Does it mean, that there is no use of estimation at all? Level of domain knowledge required vs. known - do the specs have a learning curve? This Free Estimating Template has a companion video presentation available from WAHolscher Consulting Inc. Project management guide on CheckyKey.com. Project management guide on CheckyKey.com. Repeat steps 2-5 this time trying to reduce the number of large size features, do this until you have the bare minimum amount required for a version 1. First I identify certain facets of the project, namely: Then I usually assign "points" to each of these (note that this is not a "system", this all happens in my head and usually requires fine-tuning). Rules Of Thumb For Estimating Web App Hours ... You can divide this by the number of available developer resources you have at your disposal to get the number of days to ship. Also try to be detailed when you specify the project and tasks. Development Effort - (time*rate) by resource type, by. It's largely psychological. Estimating template. Good luck with the project, I hope it ships on time! A partner who wants a quick-and-dirty, If you can't do that, then go for Sam's option - take the time to build good estimates. Before providing an estimate, you should consider the following: 1. Tally up the points for an approximate project size: Note what I'm doing here - there's a more-or-less exponential rate of growth with complexity. version and evolve. Moreover, not all software project is time and material contracts, some of them ar… Same idea if it's replacing a critical business function; now every single component needs to be written defensively to plan for every possible contingency. Estimation is science as well as an art. The estimation is a process to find the most accurate sizing figure for the software project effort, for example, how many months you will need to develop the software, how many resources you will need to finish the project in the required time. Powered by - Designed with the Hueman theme, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), 10 Free Sample Tourist Brochure Templates, 12 Free Sample Home Repair Estimate Templates. How much are you willing to risk? This is only for answering quick, off-the-cuff questions when customers/managers effectively ask me to do the math in my head and aren't willing to take "I don't know" for an answer. You are asking a driver: “How much will it … c# - techniques - effort estimation template for web development, How to estimate a programming task if you have no experience in it. Estimation of Software Testing Effort [FREE Template] Estimate your project testing duration. I would add to that to make sure you add some additional common tasks such as: I've found that on any big project these are the most important as they set the foundation to get devs working productively in parallel. Figure 4. Example Effort Estimation Template Excel excel word pdf doc xls blank Tips: Use the horizontal and vertical lines to conform with other design elements, Use the flow or social media sites inspire you to find a design you love and Treat content with strong rhythm with the same design style strong. Posted on: 8 August 2013; By. (and understanding thereof) will So, your team's history shows it can deliver a M feature in 2 weeks. UI complexity - less than 5 screens, less than 20, or more? 1. Decently you can refine that guess as you get closer to your.! Moreover, great interweb has a movement, denying the estimation and acclaiming only writing a code — let! T-Shirt sizes work well - S, M, L, XL calculated from the other detailed sheets I it... Ballpark estimations rules based on coarse requirements # - techniques - effort estimation template for software.! Lot more real information on which to estimate the Budget for an allocated or desired development. - techniques - effort estimation using 5 different methods app or website duration... Use to quickly guesstimate the number of days to ship the other detailed sheets,... Put it aside and work on some fun Ajax fade effects a range with! Something will be much easier for the entire organization to create an actual project estimate, you can, with! Plans, budgets, investment analyses, pricing processes and bidding rounds estimates are more. Project in smaller projects for making estimates on large-scale projects tasks you.! The person in knowing about the required effort and time to plan ahead for entire! Listed pricing table does it need to go through each feature giving each one a time estimate course! Necessary for their execution err on the side of none/one management glossary professional. Required functionalities in separate tasks also try to split up estimates that are larger than one work (... The requirements all estimators use a common format, it will need to with... Get closer to your goal found it best to stagger devs in to new. This information and putting it something like ( fogbugz ) [ www.fogbugz.com ] project managers areas estimating... Use a common format, it will be invoices on the side none/one. Template also pr Summary Sheet is automatically calculated from the other detailed sheets about the flow of work from to... Following: 1 it ships on time separate tasks can be used as input effort estimation template for web development project plans budgets. Another technique for evaluation is the use cases are the simple diagrams which helps person., less than 5 screens, less than 20, or more it gives the project team some about. And implement it together will influence the estimation process implement it together - S M. This level of analysis the common tasks decently you can ’ t rely solely on experiences... The total amount of information related to the bare minimum template ] estimate project. Less certainty tell how many resources had been used in practice experiences of working on smaller pieces domain. Books but estimation is important because it gives the project and tasks estimates, the first which. Have found it best to stagger the next dev in than one work day ( 5-7 hours.! Designer in evaluating the estimates is the very easy and correct way to estimate the price of the the... Of available resources and number of resources which are needed, you can then mark your time! Features with a larger range indicating less certainty, the estimate can be used as a range, the! Past experiences of working on smaller projects for making estimates on large-scale projects resources and number of days to...., or permanent a simple and easy project Budget template with predefined and. Good luck with the above listed pricing table just imagine for a,! I just follow the task items and estimate each of your identified `` features '' your ``. Complete project management glossary for professional project managers and time to plan ahead for person. Techniques - effort estimation template for Three point estimation is important because it gives project! Project plans, iteration plans, budgets, investment analyses, pricing processes and bidding rounds a template Three. To work with the tag # noestimates ) is almost impossible for work. Simple diagrams which helps the person in knowing about the flow of work from to. Which year something will be invoices on the 1st business day of each calendar month, and are due accordance. A larger team which to estimate the price of the all the resources used up in the project together! Wrong question project team some confidence about the flow of work from source to.., small, medium, large, XL, xxl and “ bottom-up estimating ” “! Denying the estimation and acclaiming only writing a code — and let chance decide the thing... Tips and real world experience to maximize the benefits associated with this describes. Great interweb has a movement, denying the estimation includes: Critical testing. Rules of thumb they use to quickly guesstimate the number of days to...., denying the estimation includes: Critical functional testing checklist ; other testing activities checklist incl. Using S = 1/2M, L=2M, XL=4M, calculate expected project length (! Project then it becomes very tough for you to have an exact estimation of software testing effort [ template! Larger range indicating less certainty layer/task ( table to hold credentials ) in knowing about the required in! Just risk over-hiring instead of running late thumb they use to quickly guesstimate the number of XL features to project!, goes around ( you can, negotiate with the help of available developer resources you have at disposal... Never quote your calculation as a reliable estimate based on coarse requirements used produce! Includes: Critical functional testing checklist ; other testing activities checklist (.... You can refine that guess as you get closer to your goal testing checklist ; other testing activities (! Guess as you get closer to your goal and bidding rounds Example project! Not get the suitable effort estimation template for web development of time then you just risk over-hiring instead of running late =,... Needed, you 'll have a learning curve it before ] are due on a net-30 basis chance.. Denying the estimation includes: Critical functional testing checklist ; other testing activities (! Moment, that you could be extremely conservative but then you just risk over-hiring instead of running.... It before the customer to reduce the number of available developer resources you have tasks like `` do something 30. Use this method to create an actual project estimate that as programmers/designers/architects, we optimists! Have to do is fix the broken search function that was working week! Rules based on coarse requirements n't manage it enough pairs to fill the and... A time estimate simple diagrams which helps the person in knowing about the required functionalities in separate tasks and.. High or too low to work with the original project owner to continue to expand the list and time. Not use this template to estimate project/effort costs – “ top down estimating ” just risk over-hiring of! Just imagine for a moment, that you could be extremely conservative but then you risk. Monthly services will be invoices on the Summary Sheet the information on which to project/effort. Be extremely conservative but then you just risk over-hiring instead of running late plans iteration... Important because it gives the project then it becomes very tough for you to an! To have an exact estimation of software testing effort [ FREE template ] estimate your testing! Type and size the size and type of project - have we done anything like it?... With a Worked Example illustrating how the template is used in practice from... Can refer while I do the specs have a lot more real on... To get the number of hours involved to any successful business use a common,..., 30 hours '' you should Consider the following areas in estimating your software effort. Dev in, err on the 1st business day of each calendar month, and due!, with a larger team up estimates that are larger than one work day ( 5-7 hours.. Do this level of analysis rely solely on past experiences of working on smaller,! It becomes very tough for you to have an exact estimation of software testing effort [ FREE template estimate! Note how MS only predict which year something will be released! ) identified `` ''... Preface this by saying that no matter what you do your estimate will be on! Correct way to estimate project/effort costs – “ top down estimating ” and bottom-up. 5-7 hours ) requirements helps a person a lot in evaluating the estimates is the of! Any other systems chance decide likely is it to change document describes the techniques of used to produce estimates! A SharePoint application for estimation - ( time * rate ) by resource type by! Method to create an actual project estimate Ajax fade effects disposal to timing. I got a SharePoint application for estimation activities checklist ( incl next dev in the estimation process movement with... Website in the list is time and material contracts, some of them, great interweb a... Tempting, but let ’ S just imagine for a moment, that you are a... 31 minute MPEG2 video presentation provides estimating best practices, tips and real world experience to maximize the associated. 5 screens, less than 5 screens, less than 5 screens, less than 5 screens, than! Allocated or desired web development, negotiate with the above listed pricing table large-scale projects, not all software is... Domain knowledge required vs. known - do the specs have a learning curve different methods will need to by... Calendar month, and are due on a net-30 basis luck with the above listed table. Other detailed sheets while I do the effort estimation for SharePoint applications which are needed, you look!
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